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I think everyone in the country has heard about Betty and Barney Hill, about the book

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Interrupted Journey and the UFO picture that was just on TV the other night.

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Well, as a gentleman, the name is Dr. Benjamin Simon.

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He's a psychiatrist in the Boston area, and he was called on to interview, psychoanalyze,

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and hypnotize Betty Hill and Barney Hill.

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So let's switch out to his home and welcome Dr. Simon to our program.

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Dr. Simon?

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Yes.

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Good morning.

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Thank you very much for staying up this late.

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I know that you're a day timer, and I appreciate you staying up this late to come on the air

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with us.

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Did you take a nap before you were called?

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No, I just watched TV.

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Now, what I'd like to do is do a step by step.

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I'd like to start from the beginning, if you would, and hit a lot of details that have

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been eliminated on other types of media.

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And as we go along, well, I just want you to give us your personal opinion of what you

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can say.

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I know that for some time you were hesitant and reluctant to say certain things.

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I'd like you just to say, just be candid and tell the folks whatever you think.

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And then later, if with your permission, we'll take some calls from people around the country,

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okay?

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All right.

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Now, to start from the beginning, this started in the early 60s.

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And when did you first enter the story of Betty and Barney Hill?

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Well, it was in being late to 63, quite near Christmas time.

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And I kept appointments, which my secretary had made with a Mr. Barney Hill.

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When I went into the waiting room, there was a white woman present who I thought you might

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be there for one of my associates.

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He gave me a second of stories that he had been under treatment for about a year with

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an infectious psychiatrist for Anglican anxiety.

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He had also symptoms of high blood pressure.

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And over the year, he hadn't gotten very far and was ultimately recommended to me by his

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psychiatrist.

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At that time, Betty was there, truly, as his life's companion.

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Well, they began almost at the beginning with a six-page report from the NICAP, which I had

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never heard before.

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It's the National Investigating Committee for Area of Phenomenon.

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And this is the story of their scene, an unidentified flying object, which was investigated by the

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NICAP investigator who made this report.

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He had intimated that they were put on his people, and that he believes the story.

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That story had first come to light during the treatment by his New Hampshire psychiatrist.

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He felt that this might be a sum.

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It just because also there was a feeling on the part of both Barney and Betty that they

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had, there was something in their lives, two hours or so, which seemed to bother them,

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but which they could not account just to fight for.

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Well, this scene, this is true of both.

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And then, well, Barney's symptoms had begun just after they had this supposed fighting.

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They had responded by a series of dreams extending over a week or more of a nightmarish quality.

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So it seemed that this problem had really involved both of them in their experiences.

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And I undertook to take both of the treatment and to use hypnosis to penetrate what appeared

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to be a non-musical period with very weight-to-weight background.

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The only feeling they had was that coming back on a trip from Canada, they got home about

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two hours later than they should have.

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And they had no idea what had happened, if anything, during these two hours.

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So that was the beginning, and I must insist that everyone understand that these two people

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came to me not for an investigation, but to have a hold for any of the things that they

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thought they could do.

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So I don't think that this was the only of the rest that transpired and looked into

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the story and everything.

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So as a consequence of the findings and doing the treatment of the two, which was especially

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successful in about seven months.

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Okay, now, would you start with your treatment?

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And I'd like to know your reaction when you heard their experience.

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And how far did they go back?

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How far did you regress before they started telling you?

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Well, I just went back to the starting point of Montreal.

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They had been denied a call and were coming home.

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And Montreal, you might say, was at the top of the journey.

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If you push it on a map coming down to New Hampshire.

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And that didn't seem to be much before that.

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I took that as a take-all point.

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And simply under his notice, which was quite deep, told them, well, I took them one at

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a time before, so we'd begin with Barney, and directed him to tell me everything that

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happened on that trip, all the feelings he had, all the experiences, which they were

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related, and so on.

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This would be somewhat different from the written report, which was a written report.

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Here they were to really act out or relive that trip.

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Could you tell us now, Barney's report, can you remember clearly, that Barney's report

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and then Betty's report?

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Yeah.

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Well, I can simplify the whole thing by saying that Barney and Betty gave the same

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story, and that story was precisely like the story that had been written up by the

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NCAP investigator.

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There were no significant differences, in fact, no differences between the three.

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This story they each gave consciously.

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Remember, now, this was spread over quite a bit of time, but I took Barney up to a, well,

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pretty well through it, then followed by Betty.

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So we came along, we had the, and what marked the trip, particularly from Barney's point

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of view, up to the time of sighting, was a revelation coming mostly from his unconscious,

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so they marked anxiety he had in being a black man in a white culture.

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To me, this is the most important part, and the revelations of the feelings of a human being,

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and in surroundings which he felt to be a inimical joint.

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And as the mates shipped out, they would stop to eat.

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He would wonder if he was going to be allowed in or they stopped at a motel, something like

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that, whether they would accept it or not.

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And all of this seemed like a touch of a gun.

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And this still stopped and still does, and I can't go into these many details in part.

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What they tell, a time was a constant, they can't keep in anxiety.

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Feeling of being watched, feeling of danger.

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This went on and on until we came to a point, dust was coming, and it got to a point where

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they were in near some lonely woods where he wondered if there were bears, and the bears

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might come out and harm him.

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There were seven screens going out of intense fear in which he, as would be seen in the movie,

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was covered on the ground, screens with terror, and that feces and the actual sightings which

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have seen the well-described type of vehicles off and around, sort of shape, present shape,

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whatever you will, of men there.

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So during the time he was doing this outside and watching what he supposed was, they were

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trying to determine what it was, they thought of a plane, of a type of car, various things

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like that.

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Barney did not show strong convictions that it was anything but some way of explaining

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what you will.

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Betty stayed in the car, the most part, that little dog, Delcy, was frightened, and Betty

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began to become anxious.

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It seemed to me she was much more anxious about Barney out on the road and sort of walking

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away and then back to the car.

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Then she walked up, or what they saw, though she herself thought that it was some sort of

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UFO.

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She had much more conviction on that than Barney.

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So we went through all of that scene, and in this whole shared exactly like where we

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continued on without actually out of hours constantly on their door to what this could

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mean, whether it was a station or what sort of thing, whether there might be something

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present and of course UFO was constantly in the words and in the air, particularly Betty.

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The story had been told to me and all the information were that they gave exactly the same

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story.

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There was no difference that they both shared the same experience all the way.

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However, as we went along, I finished Barney on a sort of a note of exaltation, his fears

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were quieted, and he was feeling better at least at that time.

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When I went through Betty's story up to that point of the sighting of the so-called UFO

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or whatever it was, Betty's story had bodies of the same.

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She, being a different personality, gave a little more gage to it and so on, didn't show

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as much terror, and she went much further than Barney where he ended up on a note of well,

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his eventually experiencing a typical breath.

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I went home, by the way, let's go along first.

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Betty's story went on beyond that and telling a story of having been that the UFO had landed

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at night beeping sounds and had stole their motor, various things of that sort and had

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caused silver-like spots to appear on their car.

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However, it seemed to land, and then men emerged from it, and I suppose everyone who has seen

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them will wait and see what the men were supposed to look like, the rather oriental cast and so on.

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A usual type of presumed extraterritorial visitors, wherever they may come.

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She went on with a fantastic story of having been taken aboard.

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She described Barney as where his eyes closed as sort of suspended between two men who were

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half-dragging him along to the same vehicle, and she had her eyes open and did not have to be dragged.

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She was taken along by one of the people, the leader of the group, and taken aboard the same vehicle there.

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They were separated, Barney was taken into a room, presumably for the same purpose.

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She was in her room, that is, to be examination.

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On board they conducted a physical examination of variant, the fashion that anyone who has been to a doctor would quite well recognize.

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And there I was.

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The UFO didn't show up.

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At first I want to say I believe the honesty of these people and still do.

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Barney, Barney, and Borse, and Ted.

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What did you personally think? Did you think that they were hallucinating at this time?

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Well, it depends on what you mean.

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There certainly was not psychotic hallucinations.

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And up until Barney's story, I took it as a clear relation to things that had happened.

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But when she began to give all the experiences of being examined, take the board, reading maps, all sorts of things like that,

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I still didn't feel their hallucinations in the more psychotic sense.

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But they certainly were a war deviation from the very matter of fact things that had brought up to van.

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All of that was easily believable.

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Now here I was faced with this, with a story that was very fantastic.

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That is the, now we make a sharp division between the sighting and the vehicle,

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and the ultimate experience of being abducted, take the board and everything that followed thereafter.

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This had me in a bind.

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I was now faced with certain decisions and I couldn't make them.

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That is was, if this were real and true, I would have to believe that these supposed people were from outer space

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and we were having what everybody hopes we'll have and nobody has proved at all,

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visitation from outer space, old classical UFO, as it follows.

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Well by the way, I must define UFO as I see it, means unidentified flying object and that's all it means.

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It can be men's old balloons, weather balloons, insincerct it, or anything else.

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It does not by its definition imply visitation from outer space which might or might not be a part of it.

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And I insist on remembering that.

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Well of course, I too have seen a couple of UFOs and both of them became my UFOs at a later time,

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but as they became identified flying objects.

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However, there I was, I believe in their honesty.

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This story was fantastic and unreal and either had to be rejected or accepted.

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Then at that point, I became aware of something.

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That at the point, up to the point of the fighting and those experiences,

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the two stories were exactly like if everybody had said, well they all like old long ones, they weren't alike.

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But these experiences of farm-hold visit, fog there and much more material there than Barney

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who simply thought himself as being supported with his eyes closed.

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What turned up then as I reviewed it all, everything that Barney had said, which was very little about that reduction,

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was in Barney's story.

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She saw it, she saw it, he dragged away and all that.

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Nothing of Barney's story, but nothing was in Barney's story.

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So they were not alike from that point on.

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Did he reject any of her story?

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Well, there wasn't a question at that point.

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He didn't know.

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The question of validity came much later when everything was over and we were going over material.

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What about his testimony about the two hours, the coincide with her testimony?

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Both of them gave the same.

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However, in giving it, they both gave the answer to the two hours.

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It was very clear.

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It was not due to that abduction, which they suppose had taken place in the two hours

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and had been repressed on instruction from these visitors.

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I was just wondering if we took two other people and had them experience something for two hours,

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would their testimony be identical or would they differ?

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Well, if it was true, they should be identical.

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Everything else was identical up to then.

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But now the question, they two were not alike.

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Very markedly different.

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So, realizing then that this difference was critical,

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I bet he gave by far the most elaborate story,

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the diesel in the neighbor and all the things which I can't stop to describe.

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They're all a part of the story of the book and in the movie.

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Some fantastic examinations.

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There are some things that you might find in American hospitals.

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That was the turning point.

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I can't explain that or accept the fact, since I believe there are many places where there were many questionable places in it.

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Everything you looked at was in the Burke style, or Burke type instruments.

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Even in England, for example, while surgeons may do the same thing,

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the instruments may accomplish the same thing.

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They're different.

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That would be true anywhere.

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There are a lot of things of that sort.

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If you're acquired later or asked about, I might give you that example here or there.

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But the turning point was again, as I said, that difference in their two stories.

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And the second realization, that Betty gave a very elaborate story,

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a very elaborate and detailed one,

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and Barney gave a minimal story that everything that occurred with Barney was known to Betty.

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And nothing that Betty has known to Barney.

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And I realized that there had to be some stuff or something behind that difference.

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And I remembered at that point, that when they first saw me, that Betty had had these dreams, these nightmarish dreams.

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Of course, the other thing I had to find out is how did it get to Barney?

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In further investigation, I asked Betty if she had told her dreams to Barney.

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She said no, he was working nights, so he wasn't home.

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When I asked Barney if she told him, he said no.

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Now, there's one thing that is important, that a hypnotized person tells the truth.

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But you've got to remember, which I remember later, that he tells her that he sees it,

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as it sees the truth to him.

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Which may not be the true reality.

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That doesn't mean he has lied or maligned it.

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Well, as I went along with that, as soon as this deviation, I remembered that one of the Betty's symptomatology

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had contrasted to Barney's anxiety for these nightmarish dreams.

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She had not told me what they were.

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She said she had written them down at the time they occurred.

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That means way back in 61.

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But I couldn't find...

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I asked her a breather and she said she couldn't find the dreams.

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I subsequently directed her under hypnosis to bring it in, as she found it and brought it in.

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I have...

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Now, when Betty told all of this story, I asked her, remembering somewhat the nature of the dreams,

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asked her if that wasn't just like her dreams.

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She said no, it wasn't.

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And I asked her what the difference was.

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She said, well, if the dreams, she had grown up a ramp.

248
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And in the...

249
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Now, this may be wrong, it may reverse, but it doesn't matter.

250
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It's the difference.

251
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And in the reality, she'd grown up some stentas.

252
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I asked her, wasn't this a difference without distinction?

253
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Or a distinction without a difference?

254
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Which is where you want to put it?

255
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And she denied it.

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That was the difference, was that she ran up the ramp and considered that important.

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So I directed her to bring in her dreams, as she would find them, and bring them in the next session she brought them.

258
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And they were fully typed out by herself at the time they occurred.

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That's very important back in 61.

260
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And on a careful inspection of that with her story, they were exactly alike.

261
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But one difference, that in the dreams, she went up both a ramp and stent.

262
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Well, Betty and Barty were both taking up ramp and stents.

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That's all.

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Otherwise, they were exactly alike.

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And still, she would not accept, fully, that they were the same.

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Well, that gave me an answer at that point, that this fantastic story was for dreams.

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And therefore, we could fit that very well with reality of these dreams of that sort, as a carnage missile.

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So I was satisfied.

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I didn't have to look any further for an explanation.

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I wouldn't have to accept under our present conditions the existence of this just amount of space, however they were described, whatever they were.

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Dr. Simon, we're going to take a break now.

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And when we come back, I'd like to ask you about the revelation of this constellation of the stars and today's discovery of these stars.

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I'd like you to tell us about that and then let me take a break.

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At least what it was then.

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Okay.

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About today's discovery, they've been mentioned.

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I'm not impressed.

278
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I haven't gone into it.

279
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Very good.

280
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Okay, let's continue.

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Dr. Simon?

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Yes.

283
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,000
Okay, let's continue, if you will, with those...

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00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,000
See, I didn't see the motion picture of the TV show.

285
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,000
Now, what was the story?

286
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People called last night and asked about the stars that she identified in the early 60s,

287
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that none of the astronomers or scientists knew about until recently.

288
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Can you tell us about stories?

289
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000
Well, I don't know much about that story.

290
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That's Betty's story.

291
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000
Oh, yes.

292
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And I haven't...

293
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I'm convinced that much, they're open to questions.

294
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And so I haven't bought it, but it isn't particularly relevant.

295
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If in the first place, I'll have to take a bit of an excerpt out of the situation she

296
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had, actually in the dream, but in her abduction, put it that way, the leader.

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And she got quite friendly and he told her to answer her question about where they were

298
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and where they came from.

299
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And he said, well, he would tell her where they came from if she would tell them where

300
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she came from.

301
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And so he pulled down a map which had a bunch of stars in it and showed it to her.

302
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And I asked her later to draw me that map.

303
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,000
And what she'd do was a map with a number of stars in it and a lot of lines, dotted lines

304
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and hard lines, one of which she said represented trade routes between the stars and the universe

305
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and the other one represented trade routes or expeditions.

306
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And in this case, ended up in the map that you see in the book or you'll see those

307
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in the book, and what you saw in the movie at the end.

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If you can call it a map, it was like a sort of a Bob-Tale cucumber.

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And then subsequent to that, she ran into an article in The New York Times representing

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some radio ways coming out of some stars in space.

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And these were given certain names.

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The Russians had taken to hear radio sounds from that.

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And she confirmed to use that on her map and it is to her that the stars all coincided.

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The result of that situation, she wanted to take a copy of it with her.

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But when she couldn't show him where she was, he said,

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you don't know where you are, we won't tell you where we are.

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But where we came from, the situation, my interpretation is very obvious,

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she couldn't show him where she was because she was standing on it.

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In other words, she was giving this in the viewpoint of the Earth, not of someone in the dark space.

320
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And therefore, she couldn't show the things she was standing on.

321
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,000
Others haven't made that observation too.

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Well, she claims that one of those stars that she put on there has just recently been discovered.

323
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If that is true, of course, and if her map is valid, then the only thing she can claim is that she has precondition.

324
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I don't know how many of us are willing to accept that.

325
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You don't understand why precondition is sort of foretelling the future.

326
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I think, in your opinion.

327
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:37,000
I think this is simply something that she believes, she has put together things.

328
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,000
I'm not enough for my children because I don't consider them significant in my point.

329
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,000
I'd be quite out that...

330
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,000
Yeah, but she tries to do it on purpose.

331
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,000
I'm going to be a sort of an active member of the student.

332
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:57,000
I'm going to make sure that she gets the right people out of me when I can't keep a date.

333
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,000
I'm going to let kids that make my heart look happy the greatest little more than I would.

334
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,000
Well, my son took one look at that.

335
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,000
He said, that's the constellation of Pegasus, period.

336
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,000
And I let it go at that.

337
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At any rate, I'd say that's not so relevant to the construction that I have about the case,

338
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which is an entirely factual and psychological one, and is not proving anything by hindsight.

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And so I can't make any further comment on that except she considers that a marked milestone

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in the proof of her belief, which she said she's sure of, that she was kidnapped, and so on.

341
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Now, then having satisfied myself at that point, and the whole step of my study of the case,

342
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was how did it get Barney?

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Barney denied that she had told him her dreams.

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So I took another tag, and I said, she denied telling my wife and I,

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I said, did you tell your dreams to anyone?

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She said, oh yes, my supervisor, my sister, when we got to work,

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we'd come home and have tea together, and I told her my dreams, and this is a very telling one.

348
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And she said that it was my supervisor who said, Betty, how do you know these are dreams?

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How do you know it isn't true? This is planting the seed now that this had to be true.

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Well, finally, and this rounds it out with a great many gaps that I just don't have time to tell,

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but if they happen to come up in any questions, I'll do what that's with them.

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There's one more thing. By the way, when I say dreams, I'm not only referring to fact she had dreams,

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that she'd written them down, but the whole structure of the story was out of a dream.

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There are many contradictions in considering whether they're perfectly alright in dreams.

355
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In fact, they're part of the nature of dreams.

356
00:27:54,000 --> 00:28:02,000
And so this thing was clearly filled out for me the concept of the dream by a lot of inner material.

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And there are many, one more thing. In general, dreams are looked upon as the unfinished business of the day.

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That is those things that in one's daily life, whether they've been working or the things that are left relatively unresolved

359
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,000
and still hanging on, everyone has its experience. Some of them can't sleep because they haven't.

360
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:36,000
And others sleep and dream heavily, expressing their unfinished business of the day often because it's not compatible

361
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:46,000
with the worries and so on are expressed in a disguised form, what we call the dream substance.

362
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Now, basically for dreams, there is a thing that we are in a situation we call the day stiveness.

363
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,000
That is, according to what I said, the unfinished business of the day.

364
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:02,000
Things that happen, that set up the tensions that lead to expression through dreams.

365
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:08,000
So it left me with just to round it out at least to my satisfaction, the day stiveness.

366
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And that implied, citing an own identified part. In other words, the day stiveness would be the unfinished thing.

367
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:21,000
That would express itself through dreams and all the behavior in Barney with psychosomatic symptoms.

368
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:29,000
There was plenty to suggest that something I never could find out what the precise thing was,

369
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:37,000
except Barney's constantly increasing fear and his tremendous reaction of fear when the scene was cited.

370
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Now, there are many things that can be cited. I said I've seen a couple. Many have been.

371
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:49,000
Menzel of Harvard had described many aerial phenomena, weather balloon, and so I said,

372
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:58,000
on the certain weather conditions can look like a UFO class in Washington has cited,

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00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:04,000
as mentioned, his theory of ball lightning as a base stimulus.

374
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:12,000
In my case, the YouTube stimuli without giving the story turned out to be an American airline plane.

375
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The one which I saw long before I knew the hills and one subsequent scene by me and another guy just turned out to be a brilliantly lighted sign outside of Hartford,

376
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which was reflected through Misty Sky and stayed with us for quite a while. So now there's one thing that is shown and actually they cut that into the movie.

377
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:47,000
It's not clear is that when they stopped at their last place, there was a look as if some men working in the road and if you saw the movie,

378
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that's shown there and that could have been very much a thing misinterpreted as a UFO in the other sense of the word.

379
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,000
And that rounds out the story.

380
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:14,000
When Betty and Barney Hill were interviewed by NICAP, do you know did the people in NICAP buy their story, hook, line, and sinker?

381
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Yes. And NICAP may one of the greatest mistakes I have ever seen. That is, the interviewer was a scientist.

382
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:37,000
And there was the story of these silver spots outside of the silver dot on the back of the car, which they said at the time were still on the car.

383
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And for God knows what reasons. He never went out to look at them.

384
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,000
I was going to ask you about that, were they still visible? Who saw them?

385
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:57,000
Well, nobody but Betty and Barney. But that is at least Betty spoke of them more. But here was an opportunity to see one single objective thing.

386
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:03,000
You know, we've never had a single objective thing about one of these. Here was a chance to see the spot at least.

387
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,000
What happened to the car? I mean, who?

388
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,000
Well, eventually they went away.

389
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,000
Oh, I see.

390
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:16,000
They were washed away eventually. Could I pause for just a little bit longer as I find that I didn't finish the one major point.

391
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,000
Sure.

392
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:27,000
That is, that how did, when Betty did I tell her to get to Barney, and Barney did not, being told, there I was again, because I believe they were telling the truth.

393
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,000
How did this Betty story get to Barney? All fragments of it.

394
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,000
Well, I asked her, she told you, as I said, to anyone. She said to her sister.

395
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:42,000
And her supervisor, the one who suggested this might not be a dream, but a reality.

396
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:50,000
Then I asked, where was Barney? Well, of course, he was working nights, and where was he, since he must be around in the daytime.

397
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,000
Well, he was over in the corner fusing around with something.

398
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:03,000
So here is a classical thing of what the hypnotized person can do. He tells the truth, and he lies at the same time.

399
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:12,000
She, that the literal thing was, of course, she didn't tell it to Barney, and the literal thing was that she didn't tell it to Barney coming from him.

400
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,000
But she did tell it in Barney's presence, and that's where he got it.

401
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,000
And so it was both the truth and lie.

402
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:24,000
As they saw it, they used the literal thing of telling, meaning of her both expression directly to someone.

403
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,000
That's all, that clears that part up very beautifully.